Governance Bites #67: women in governance, with Glenys Talivai

In this episode, Mark Banicevich asks Glenys Talivai about women in governance. He asks about the key barriers and challenges, and how these manifest at different stages of a woman’s career. They discuss how diversity on boards enhances performance. Glenys shares thoughts on how boards can create a culture of inclusivity, and how men and women can advocate for gender diversity in governance.
Glenys Talivai is CEO of Public Trust, a role she’s held since 2019. Earlier in her career, Glenys was General Manager of Customer Acquisition, Retention and Claims at Tower Insurance, General Manager of Sales and Marketing at Medical Assurance Society, and spent almost 12 years at ANZ. 
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Transcript

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Kia ora koutou. My name is Glenys Talivai. I'm the CEO [Chief Executive Officer] at Public Trust. We're an estate planning and administration organisation that's been around in New Zealand for 150 years, and today we're going to talk about women in governance. Hi, welcome to Governance Bites. My name is Mark Banicevich, and as you just heard, today I have the pleasure of spending time with Glenys Talivai to talk about women in governance. Glenys, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. This is an area of passion for you. You're very keen on encouraging women into leadership positions. What are some of the key barriers or challenges that women face in attaining leadership positions, both in governance and in senior management positions within corporate and for-purpose sectors? Well, look, Mark, first and foremost, I think for a lot of women, they think about taking that next step, maybe up to leadership, maybe to governance, or a new role. It is this self-confidence piece. I think putting ourselves out there — lots of people talk about, you know, women will only want to make sure that they're ticking off all the boxes and are really confident that they can do a good job. I think that's at the heart of some of this coming through. And certainly from my experience, things that I've seen. I think equally, too, as someone who goes about hiring leaders, and in particular women, it's actually about making sure that you are purposefully going out into the market to find these people that might be, sort of holding back, or are not too sure. Well, how can you connect with them and encourage them? And, you know, make sure that you get them into your selection process. Look, they might not end up being your preferred candidate, but you want them in your selection process, and to find them there, I think. You know, that seems to be

the sort of quid pro quo: 1:55

are we doing enough to get women to apply in the first place? And then how are we helping women build their self-confidence to put themselves out there for some of these positions? Right, so you talked there particularly about behavioural factors. Are any of the more traditional factors still a factor? Look, I do think that, particularly in financial services, whilst I think it's getting better, there are still a lot of men in a lot of these spaces. I think, you know, women don't see themselves show up as much, albeit it is getting better. It is 1000% better from when I came through in my early career. I think it's... I have a lot of confidence in that space. But I also do think, you know, sometimes it's also about how we talk about roles, and how we make them appeal to a lot more broader people that are sitting out there, that really could lend their skills and experiences to a role,- Yes. - rather than the traditional job description with all the skills and experience that often, let's be honest, it's going to be — it's a unicorn that we're looking for in terms of that perfect person. And they can be as interesting as watching paint dry to read. That doesn't exist, you know? Yes, yeah. So I just think that there are still some inherent barriers, potentially some unconscious biases, but I think equally, though, too, I do want to acknowledge, I think, a lot more work going into this area to make a shift. Yes. But, you know, until we see some of the gaps that do exist really narrow, a shift is still needed nonetheless. Yes. Absolutely. How do these barriers manifest at different stages of a woman's career, from entry-level, potentially straight out of university or school, through to executive-level or governance appointments? Yeah. Look, I think for women coming through, look these days, actually, I see a lot of young women that are trying lots of different things and, you know, really broadening their skills and experience. There's a lot more networking groups and the like that you can get involved in. More than what I've ever seen before. I do think one of the big challenges that often happens, maybe you might have already got into one of the more junior leadership positions in an organisation, but there is still a gap, I think, when women go and have children. Yes. Because it's really hard to keep up networking and doing all the things that you would usually do when you have a baby. It's really difficult. And then, of course, things move on when you're out of the workforce. Right. You know, we talk about how much workforces are changing at the moment, and how do you stay connected into that? And this is where I think the confidence manifests. Yeah, I think you've probably also got an element, as well, that if you're the primary caregiver, even when you do return to the workforce, you've got to get home at a reasonable hour to be there for the child when they're finishing daycare or those sorts of things. And we have a lot of evening — a lot of the networking events happen in the evenings too, right. So that makes things very difficult. Yeah, I mean, look, one of the things I will say is that in a post-COVID world, you know, where people have got hybrid working environments, that's made it an awful lot easier. Yes. The one thing I will say, by the way, as a mother who returned to work, is the moment that you do that, your child is sick all of the time. So you feel like you're away just as much as what — you've intended to come back, because that's part of the whole transition and kids getting exposed to all kinds of bugs and things like that. But I do think, and this is where, you know, it's about being really purposeful around, you know, how do you really think about different groups in the workplace, and the fact that, you know, whether it's for women or for others, how do you engage in and create opportunities for that inclusion to really happen? Recognising that actually maybe that networking event doesn't have to happen after hours, - Yes. - and the like. How do you make that at lunch or something more attainable? I think there's also an element of responsibility that has to happen in the home, as well. That, you know, fathers, in particular, have to step up and be a little bit more equal in the child-raising, in the family relationship. So, if there is an industry event that you need to go to, well, maybe Dad's got to be home and look after the kids. One of my — my wife, when our children were young, was very careful to point out to me that it's not babysitting, it's parenting. Yes. You know, and quite often Dads will say,'I've got to babysit tonight'. No, you don't. You're a father, you're a parent. Yeah, look, I completely agree. And look, to be fair, in my own personal situation, I've been very blessed with my husband, who's been actively involved in terms of, you know, he was a stay-at-home dad and actively involved in that space. But it is, it takes, you know, it's about life, I say, is that, but how you can give everybody, I suppose, those opportunities. And really, it starts by really talking to your workforce about what's going to work, and how we can get people into these spaces. Absolutely. And as you say, now the post-COVID environment of working from home a little bit more gives us a great deal more flexibility. And hopefully over the next decade, we'll see a much faster shift in this happening. Let's turn it on its head now, and rather than talking bottom-up, let's talk top-down. How can greater gender diversity in governance enhance board effectiveness and the decision-making processes? Yeah, look, I mean, I think that the more diverse, and, you know, both, whether or not that's gender diversity, ethnicity diversity, or just diversity of experience and backgrounds coming into a board environment — I mean, there's lots that have been talked about it in terms of the value that it adds. And, you know, I think it's — certainly for me as a CEO working with a board and a variety of people, is that, actually it adds so much value when you've got so many different perspectives, and you can really flesh out a particular topic or issue or the like. If everyone's thinking and feeling the same way, or has the same skills and experience, you just don't have that. You might as well have one board member. 100%. Rather than eight. 100%. And so, you know, if you think about all the possible scenarios that businesses are facing these days, I think it's invaluable. I think what's even more of an opportunity here is people coming into those spaces together. You know, particularly if you think about a board, knowing, this is actually my unique contribution. Yes. This is what I uniquely bring to this particular environment. Yeah, that's a key point. And, you know, there's lots of research out there now that shows that gender diversity, in particular — that's where the research has been— leads to increased performance of the entity. What it would be great to see is some more research in the other areas of diversity that you talked about — diversity of backgrounds, diversity of ethnicity, those sorts of things, as well. Yeah. At the moment, I think, gender diversity is very easy to measure, I think. Because what they found in the data. Yeah. Whereas, you know, looking through directors' names and things, you're kind of guessing ethnicities based on family names, and it's quite complex to do so. So yes, there is a lot of research in that space, in gender in particular. How can boards create a culture of inclusivity that enables women to contribute fully and thrive in those governance roles? Yeah, so I think a culture of inclusivity in boards is really important. First and foremost, you come together as a group, usually oriented around an organisation, and so you're getting into the mahi [work] pretty quickly, if that makes sense. I think, actually inclusion is often elevated if the board has taken time to really get to know each other. What are the strengths, what are the unique perspectives? I do think the chair plays a huge role here in making sure that they are really bringing out all the different viewpoints of everybody, and making sure that they are cultivating a conversation. That if someone’s not contributing in the same way, it is, actually asking them,“What’s your perspective around that? What are your thoughts?” And even if it's the same, or it’s already been talked about, I think that’s really important. Equally, again, it’s a little bit what I was saying before, Mark, is that, even with different gender diversity, it’s understanding,"Actually, this is my unique perspective that I bring to the conversation." I think, in particular for women, really reinforcing that this is a really important perspective that they bring. Yes. I talked a bit earlier about confidence and the like, is that, actually, really being encouraging, and saying, “We want to hear from you."This is an important perspective that you bring through your lens.” I think would really help women in that particular scenario. Yes, absolutely. There’s probably a key crossover there in some of the ethnicities, as well, that tend to be more reserved and subservient in some ways. Or at least a bit more reserved in what they say. So, drawing those opinions out is very important; otherwise, there’s no value in having that person in the boardroom. I agree. I agree. Right. How can both men and women advocate for gender diversity in governance? What roles can directors play in championing the cause? So, look, I think directors absolutely, in their organisation, can champion by asking:“What does the diversity look like? What does the gender pay gap look like?” Asking questions, and expecting management to be doing things about this. Yes. You know, how are you recruiting for this role? How are you making sure that you’re getting a diverse base of applicants? I think, asking questions and probing. How do they know? How do they know that the right things are happening? Yes. I think that’s the key thing for a board. I think equally, it starts at the top; it starts with them. So, making sure that they are questioning

their board makeup: 11:54

what do we look like? And look, that’s not necessarily about what percentage is women and men; it’s also about how do we communicate the diversity of experience in conversation that’s happening around that particular board table. And being really purposeful about it, I think, is a really good way for them to lead from the top and encourage that diversity. Right. You also suggested there, reporting. I know that the company that I work for reports its gender diversity. Yes. And I expect you do as well. We do. I wonder how common that is these days, to actually have the salary bands and male-female split and those sorts of things reported to the board? Yeah, look, I think it’s a helpful start, right. And I think it’s how, you know, again, the tone from the top: how does the board bring diversity, inclusion, and equity into the conversation? The questions that they ask, how is the management of the particular organisation thinking about it? What are you doing about it? What role do they play in showing up for it and the like? Yes. Yeah, right. Thank you. One final question.

A very general question for you then: 13:11

what advice would you give to an aspiring director? I think for an aspiring director, I would say, actually, that if you’re leaning into this governance space, I think that what I’ve seen of directors is, you know, the whole piece, particularly if you’re relatively new, is, ask lots of questions. Now, sometimes for an aspiring director or someone coming in, it seems counterintuitive. It’s kind of like, “I’ll learn first and then ask, because my questions might not be as polished"or quite as good as others.” Whereas I’d say, actually, the fresh perspective or the unique perspective, and a unique set of questions, is absolutely what would add value around that piece. I also think, be really purposeful about what kind of industry or space you want to govern in. Because if it’s something you’re passionate about or really interested in, I think that will also help. Yes. If that makes sense. It’s okay not to know, as well, right. A lot of people will sit quietly because they think,“Well, maybe I should know that and I shouldn’t ask the question.” But it’s okay not to know something and ask the experts in the room, “Can you explain this to me?” Yes. And get that understanding. And as you say, quite often those naive questions are the ones that challenge the thinking around the room.“Why do we do it that way?” Yeah. And I mean, I think at a governance level, right, it is about the assurance, and the oversight of an organisation. So, how do we know, and what am I being asked to really think about or consider here in an organisation, versus what’s happening in the organisation, are quite different questions that I think, for aspiring directors, it’s about how you stay at that oversight level. Yes. It’s all in the positioning of how you start to question things and think about that particular business. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, one final takeaway for anyone watching: I would encourage you, on the boards that you’re in, to go to the organisations and ensure there is some gender and pay gap reporting. Make sure that you’ve got an understanding of what the diversity is within the organisation, and is that done well? If it’s reported to the board, then people start to take notice of those things and consider them. So, Glenys, thank you very much again for your time. I really appreciate the conversation. Thanks, Mark. And I'll look forward to seeing you in the next episode.