Governance Bites #93: healthy board meeting dynamics, with Susan Leahy

In this episode, Mark Banicevich talks to Susan Leahy about healthy board meeting dynamics. Mark asks about establishing and maintaining healthy meeting dynamics, and Susan shares some great tips. They discuss the roles of directors and other members in board culture, and strategies for handling disagreements. Mark asks about gaining diverse perspectives, and dealing with disruptive or ineffective board members. Susan outlines the impact of new board members, and shares the best governance advice she has received. 
Susan Leahy teaches boards and committees to run effective meetings, specifically using Robert’s Rules of Order. Susan Leahy has been motivating, challenging and inspiring audiences for over 15 years as a high energy keynote speaker and certified speaking professional. Her website, www.RobertsRulesMadeSimple.com, is an easy and simple training tool is used by thousands of boards across the US and Canada to learn to apply Robert's Rules of Order. 
Robert's Rules of Order: https://robertsrules.com/
Robert's Rules Made Simple: https://robertsrulesmadesimple.com/
#governance, #leadership, #corporategovernance, #boardcraft, #decisionmaking, #makingadifference, #ceo, #governancebites, #boardroom, #director, #motions, #meetings, #robertsrules

Transcript

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Hello, my name is Susan Leahy, and I'm the creator of Roberts Rules Made Simple. Mark, I'm super excited to be here on your podcast today, and we're going to be talking about a subject that I'm very passionate about. It's healthy board dynamics. So, it's serving within a meeting, being a part of a structure where you're making decisions, and doing it in a way where everyone actually walks out of the meeting room feeling like this: we're energised, we're feeling motivated, we're feeling like we've done a good job, instead of like this: we've all walked out of meetings where our energy is low. Hi, welcome to Governance Bites. My name is Mark Banicevich, and today is a milestone for the conversations that I've been having, because this is the first conversation I've had across time zones, and I'm really lucky to spend some time with Susan Leahy. Susan, thank you very much for your time. Yes, glad to be here, Mark. Thank you for, thank you for matching up the time zones. I'm all the way over in the United States today. Oh, are you? And we have, of course, had, you've just changed time zones for daylight savings. Yeah. We're still in daylight savings time, so we managed to match up, which is great. And looking forward to this conversation around healthy board dynamics, or meeting dynamics in particular. So, my first question for you is, what are the key characteristics of healthy board dynamics, meeting dynamics? Yeah, well, I think what's really important is that you let your boards decide the answer to that question, and I have a really easy mechanism for doing that, and I call it the high-five context. Okay. And so, you give somebody a high five, right. It always feels good, but what's behind the high five for this board? What do you want to think or feel as a result of the time, the energy, and life that you're spending in this meeting? And you give the board the dignity of that conversation. I'll give you some examples of a high-five context: I want to be in a healthy board dynamic where everyone feels safe, heard, respected, valued, and seen. Right. So, you think about that, it's like, okay, that's what, that's a healthy dynamic, but there also might be, you know, there's hundreds of words that you can apply to it, but what is, what is a healthy board dynamic for this board? We've got to start including the board members in on this conversation from the get, so that we can start inspiring them to think about the fact that their behaviour is what's going to create or impact the success of the dynamic. Right. Fantastic. So, how can a board then establish and maintain those healthy meeting dynamics? Yeah, so I work with lots of board chairs, and we're going to talk about that, I'm sure, in some of the other conversations that we're having today, but one of the key concepts that I talk about is the importance of repetition. So, you don't just create this healthy, this high-five dynamic, or this high-five context, and just say it once. You literally support the chair in starting the meeting by reminding everybody, and before we call the meeting to order, I want to remind everybody that this is a space where I want everyone to feel seen, heard, respected, safe, and valued. And so, you start the meeting with the high-five context, and then you end the meeting. It's a tool that I call bookending the meeting, and so you end the meeting, I hope that, again, we're about to adjourn the meeting, I hope that everybody feels like they were seen, heard, respected, safe, and that you were valued, you know. So again, it's that repetition into the context that you're desiring to create, because this is interesting, Mark, whether a board, and I'm going to even go broader than a board, wherever you are in your life, a context is going to be created whether you're intentional about it or not. Yes. Now, think about that. A context is always being created, and most of us are not being intentional about the context we're creating, and so this conversation about creating and fostering a healthy board dynamic starts at the level of being intentional about what do we want to think or feel before we have the meeting. Yes. So, what do we want to think or feel? So, so having that conversation before, and then repeating it during the meeting, will remind people that they know when they're contributing to a healthy dynamic or not. Right. But if we don't define the behaviours, people can get away with all kinds of bad meeting behaviours. Right. I like the idea that you suggested at the start, of allowing the board to create that set of values, - Yes. - and saying this is what we want to achieve as a board, and then holding people to that. And it doesn't have to be complicated. Right. It literally is, we don't need another set of vision statements, we don't need another set of mission statements, we don't need another set of core values, but what we need is we need a clearly defined agreement around the board that everybody here wants to feel seen, heard, valued, safe, and respected. Yes, yeah. And we all know when that's happening or not. Yes. Right. So, we don't need to define it. Yeah. It already is itself what we're wanting to experience. What role does the chair play in achieving this? Yeah, I mean, the chair is such a pivotal and important person in the room, because for a meeting, the chair has the single largest impact on the success or failure of a meeting. Yes. And so, what I, when I'm working with my board chairs, they really need to remember that they're the ones that are setting the context. They're not just dealing with Robert's Rules of Order, they're also using Robert's Rules of Order and those tools to handle the business, but they also have to handle the people. Yes. So, I always say there's the people and the process side of meetings, and that process side is where the meeting dynamics come into play. Right. Right, absolutely. So, the chair, of course, as you say, drives this. What role do the other directors play? Yeah, well, that's why it's so important to create buy-in, right, at the beginning of the year, and it's not just like, here this is who we are, what we're doing, it's what do you want to think, what do you want to feel? I have an equation that I use with my boards, and I always ask them, I'm like, "Time equals what?" And inevitably, people yell out, and it's not a wrong answer, they yell out "Money!" Yeah, that's ingrained, isn't it. Time equals money, right. But I really, when I'm working with my boards, I take it to an even more human level, and I think I take it to a really important level, that, "time equals life". And so, the question is, is this meeting a good use of your life? Because I believe that every board member needs to know that their life is important, and the life of the other board members is important, and the way that we're interacting, and the context that we're co-creating is important to everyone's life experience, you know, and that's why we want to have a healthy meeting dynamic. And this concept is really important too, because a lot of times board members get into the win-lose, right-wrong, good-bad struggle, you know, you're not doing it right, which creates resistance and tension. This is now, can we do this so it feels more healthy. Yes. You know, and now that's a generous question, and people are going to be willing to move and change some things, because we all know when we're serving on a dysfunctional board, and boards don't need to learn how to be dysfunctional, but what they need to do is learn tools that will help them be higher functioning, help them be healthier. That brings me on to my next question. Yeah. Because despite trying to set a foundation for a healthy board dynamic, you still, you often end up, or sometimes end up, with disagreements, conflicts between board members. What strategies do you recommend for handling that? Yeah, and what I want to say is that, you know, especially when I work with my board chairs, I want them to know that that moment of tension or stress in a meeting, and differing opinions is really an important moment, and the way that you're able to handle that as an individual board member, and as a board chair, and as a team, really is going to depend on the success of your board, because those moments aren't negative, they're normal. Yes. And so, a lot of us get really kind of thrown off when there's tension, and so we then end up muddling it up, because we don't talk about it, we don't acknowledge it, and again, that high-five context is one of the greatest tools that you can have in your back pocket as a board chair, because at the moment of kind of the tension, you remind the group,"All right, people are starting to have some aggressive side conversations. I'm seeing some personal attacks"being made here. I'm not going to have that in my room. I want to remind everybody that we are here and we are committed"to create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, valued, safe, and respected. Right. And so all of a sudden, the high-five context becomes a commitment that everyone has to live into. Yes. You know, rather than, "We don't talk like that, stop being rude." You know, which is, you know, now it's we're aspiring and inspiring people to recognise, "You're right, this isn't in alignment with who we say we are going to be." And there is a way to have civil discord where everyone is seen, valued, safe, heard, and respected. Because you want that degree of tension, right. You want some disagreement. If you don't have disagreement in the boardroom, then you've got a whole lot of people thinking the same way. That's right, absolutely. You need a diversity of views to get the right outcomes. And there's nothing negative about having different opinions. No. Like we need to be able to take the voices of the majority and the voices of the minority, and sit them around the same table and create a safe enough space so everyone can communicate and not just pick which idea from the majority or the minority is the best. What if we come up with an idea that didn't exist before? That you've actually again really well led into my next question, was around having this diversity of views heard, but avoiding a deadlock. Yeah. How do you make that happen? Well, I think that I, well, I don't know if it always is something that can be stopped from happening. That may occur sometimes. Yes. But I will tell you, if you are on a, and well, let me just say, there's a greater likelihood of that gridlock occurring if you are on a board where nobody is taking responsibility for the dynamic of that board. Yes. And so, then people get put into their own kind of, their own politics. It's about them. They're digging in their heels because they're not, they haven't committed to the collective. Right. Yes. But if you do the groundwork of providing this type of training at the beginning of the term or when you start seeing dysfunction emerge, then you can shift the conversation and your board members will take greater responsibility. I had a board that I was working with that was quite contentious, and we went in and did one of our healthy board dynamics training. They were literally one step away, well, they were actually already engaged in litigation, so two of the board members were, two of the seated board members were actually being sued. Wow. And it was a contentious meeting, and we were in there working on trying to raise the dynamic of the board through this conversation, and so, you know, you can imagine how stressful that was. You could feel the hurt feelings, you could feel the mistrust, and I'm really happy to say that after our full-day training, we walked out and the next meeting they unanimously voted to drop the lawsuit. Wow. Fantastic. And so when you're on a dysfunctional board and that board isn't communicating, they have no other option than to maybe sometimes get legal. Yes. And that wastes everybody's time and money. Yes, absolutely. You know. So, I think boards can't not afford to be able to have this discussion. This is so important to the lifeblood of the work they're doing. And it comes down, I think, to two of the values that you've mentioned a number of times so far, is around being heard and being respected. Yeah. And if the other views are coming in and you are listening to those views and not just letting them wash over you, and respecting those views, then you're more likely to compromise and come up with alternative solutions that take everyone's views into account. Yeah. I can respect you and disagree with you. Yes. I can respect you and I can listen to you. I can, and so, and again, what I want to say about the words that I've been using, there's a litany of other words that we could plug into this high-five context. These are just the words that resonate for me when I think about the type of dynamic I'd like to be in. Yes. And when I'm working with, so again, it's putting some time into thinking about, well, what are those words? And that's one of the exercises that I walk my board members through, because the truth is, whether you define your high-five context or not, it's going to get defined. Yes. You know. You can walk out of that meeting and you be like, that meeting was exhausting, frustrating, and you know, you know, blank and a blank, blank, blank. Yeah, right, right. Yeah. So, if you're explicit about it, you're more likely to be able to drive those values, rather than have them happen to you. Yes. You have a better chance of being able to get in alignment with those. What if you've got one member of the board who is a disruptive or alternatively ineffective? Yeah. What are some effective ways to deal with that? So, I've been brought in a lot of times for that exact situation, and I've seen this play out in a variety of ways. When you have a conversation transparently with everyone about the dynamic of the board, then all of a sudden nobody can hide behind their bad behaviour because it all of a sudden just gets pointed out and everyone can see it. And so that person is either going to opt in or opt out, and I have seen that happen in both cases where I've gone in, I've done a training. I actually, I don't know if this is too personal to share, but I won't share the school board, the name of the school board, but there was a school board that was in a lot of resistance with their superintendent, and it was just having a hard time getting on the same page. The board actually sought me out, and it wasn't to go after the superintendent, it was just to facilitate this discussion, but it was very interesting because after this training occurred, and it happened in a public meeting without pointing fingers at anybody, that superintendent opted out and she decided to take a different position somewhere else. Wow. Now, I've also had situations where that troubled participant or board member became a raving fan and an advocate and now had a vehicle to start building trust, because a lot of times the squeaky wheel is an individual who has a lot of energy to give. Yes. But they're not doing it in a way that's really, that they're doing it in a way that's rubbing people the wrong way or is not productive, and so we're able to go in and focus their energy. Right. And give them a productive way of engaging, and they become the star board member, Right. So. Yeah. Once the board's establish this kind of dynamic, how easy for is it for them to maintain it through a term, for example, over time? I think it's really contingent on how we get the individuals to buy in at both like the personal level, but also within the support staff, the board chair. It's a simple concept, you know, give me a high five, Mark, give me high five, right. Go on, yeah. It's a simple concept. But if we do not have people who are willing to repeat it, it will just become nothing. So, as long as they. It has to be a commitment to practise, practise, practise, you know. And as you say, that raising it at the start of the meeting, reflecting on at the end of the meeting, and if they're doing that every time. And if they're using it to make interventions. Yeah. Like I shared, you're, so it's a real commitment, and it's a change in the way that we communicate. One of, I love group facilitation. I'm a facilitation expert, and this is, I understand group dynamics. I can see it as it's happening in the room, and it is a skill that's a learned skill, and so sometimes it takes a little bit of courage for my board chair to try this language on. Yes. And commit to making sure that they're using this language, but once they do, it's so fascinating. You use it in one meeting, it sounds nice. Yes. You use it in two, it kind of, kind of gets people's attention, like, well, is that? You do it in three and they're listening. And then you do it in your fourth meeting and they're looking for it. Right. So, it takes four meetings at minimum to start really grounding the board into the rhythm of this dynamic. Right. Now, with a board of directors, generally, if you've got the right kind of rollover patterns, then maybe each year a third or a quarter or something of the board will be replaced. Yeah. So, if you've got a board that's established this great dynamic, this high-five context, and after an AGM [annual general meeting] or something, a third of the board members are new, how should a board induct new members to ensure that they align - Yeah. - with this existing dynamic? Yeah. So I, in my master's, I have a master's degree in behavioural science, and I remember when I was was learning about this concept, I thought it really blew my mind, and it applies so beautifully to boards, but I remember my professor saying something. And he said that when one new member joins a group, you have an entirely new group. Yes. So, one of the biggest mistakes that a board can make is to believe that because we were high functioning this year, we have a few new members, well, we'll just let them integrate to what we were doing and they'll catch up. No, every year treat your group with the dignity of the fact that this is a brand new group. So, you're re-establishing that set of values. You give them the opportunity to come up with their own high-five context. Right. Because the high-five context that worked for that unique board that'll never exist again in that configuration of people is going to be a little bit different than the unique configuration of this board. This is where human and healthy board dynamics needs to really be about human dynamics. Yes. You know, we're not, you know, you just can't put a badge on me and I'll be like last group. No. We're going to be different, so we have to acknowledge that, you know, and a lot of times I don't think boards do. And the reason why I think what I've created is so powerful is because it doesn't take a day and a half to train. No. You know, it is a relatively, this portion of my training is a simple process and it can be done relatively quickly, and then we need to anchor it into the practice. Yes. Right. Yes, right. Excellent. Thank you. One final question for you. What's the best governance advice you've received? Well, we're going to be talking about, and I'm biased, but when it comes to governance and serving on a board, whatever your decision-making process is for making business decisions, it is so essential that you understand it. You know, and it's so important that you, and I'm going to be talking about Robert's Rules of Order, but there's lots of individuals serving on boards who feel really intimidated when that business starts coming in front of them, and what's an amendment or a motion, or how are we managing the business, how are we making our business decisions? That's what a board is there to do. It's there to make decisions, and if you don't understand the process, then that board's operating at a deficiency. Right. Understand the process. Yeah. Great, okay. What is your decision-making process? Yes. Most specifically. Most importantly. Yeah. Awesome. Susan, thank you very much for your time. It's been really cool to catch up. Hopefully, at some stage in the future, we'll have the chance to do this in person, but for now, - Yeah, absolutely. - across the internet is the best way to go. I really appreciate it, and I look forward to catching up again soon. All right. See you next episode. See you. Thank you for watching this episode of Governance Bites. We have more episodes on YouTube and your favourite podcast channel where I interview directors and experts on various topics relating to boards of directors and governance. We'd love to see you back, and please like, subscribe, and share the videos and podcasts.