Governance Bites #97: Robert's Rules of Order, with Susan Leahy

In this episode, Mark Banicevich talks to Susan Leahy about Robert's Rules of Order.  He asks what they are and how they evolved, the benefits of using Robert's Rules, and common misconceptions about them. Susan outlines the seven key types of motion, and how they work. They discussed when they might be adjusted for specific settings, and challenges Susan has encountered when boards implement them. They talk about available resources, and Susan shares advice she would give to a new director. 
Susan Leahy teaches boards and committees to run effective meetings, specifically using Robert’s Rules of Order. Susan Leahy has been motivating, challenging and inspiring audiences for over 15 years as a high energy keynote speaker and certified speaking professional. Her website, www.RobertsRulesMadeSimple.com, is an easy and simple training tool is used by thousands of boards across the US and Canada to learn to apply Robert's Rules of Order. 
Robert's Rules of Order: https://robertsrules.com/
Robert's Rules Made Simple: https://robertsrulesmadesimple.com/
#governance, #leadership, #corporategovernance, #boardcraft, #decisionmaking, #makingadifference, #ceo, #governancebites, #boardroom, #director, #motions, #meetings, #robertsrules, #robertsrulesmadesimple

Transcript

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Alright, hey there, my name is Susan Leahy. I'm the creator of Robert's Rules Made Simple, and I specialise in working with boards that use Robert's Rules of Order to help them understand the fundamentals, and how to use the fundamentals as a tool to get more work done. And we're not just getting work done, we're getting work done in a healthy, productive dynamic. So, I'm excited to talk to you today about Robert's Rules of Order, and how you can leverage these rules to get more out of your meetings. Hi, I'm Mark Banicevich. Welcome to Governance Bites, and as you just heard, today I have the pleasure again to be talking across the ocean with Susan Leahy to have a conversation about Robert's Rules of Order, and really the best person I could possibly be speaking to about these rules, because you've made your business around Robert's Rules, and I've worked on a board, an international board, where we were trained in Robert's Rules, and used those for the meeting. And so, a lot of boards that I've encountered have never really heard of Robert's Rules, they move and second motions, but they don't really know the source of it. And so, having a conversation with you about this is going to be very, very interesting, and hopefully give some people a good introduction to what Robert's Rules are. So, could you start, then, by giving us an overview of Robert's Rules of Order? What are they, and how did they evolve? Okay, so Robert, let's start with like, who is Robert anyway, right? Who is Robert, and why do we follow his rules? So, Robert, he was actually a General in the US Army. His name was General Henry M. Robert, and he was asked to chair not only a meeting within the army, but also his church group, and he thought it was just complete mayhem. So, he wrote down his little book, and he called it Robert's Rules of Order, where he took his understanding of parliamentary procedure, and parliamentary procedure is the language that's housed inside of Robert's Rules of Order. And so, it was, you know, skinny enough to just slide inside of his uniform, and people loved the way he ran his meetings. So, this is way back in 1876, the first edition was published. It's now gone through 12 revisions, and it's over 700 pages long, and the book is part of the problem. It is too long. There is a brief version. There is a brief, thank God, that's all we need, right. That's right. And there is Robert's Rules Made Simple, because it should be simple, you know, and that's really what I focus on, is working with boards, so that they understand how to use the fundamentals of Robert's Rules of Order. Yeah, it's interesting, as you say, it was based on parliamentary procedure, and I think specifically British Parliament at the time, and in the work that I do in my day job, I've encountered changes in legislation and so forth, and our parliamentary procedure is now available online. You can watch recordings and stuff of what's happened in Parliament, and watching them follow Robert's Rules is really, really interesting, and noting that now they have, you know, 10-minute speaking slots, for example, and actually,"Oh wow, all of this has come out of Robert's Rules." There we go. There we go. Full circle. And why do we have these rules? Because when you are making decisions, you have to have a decision-making process. Yes. And so, that, that really is it. So, when people say, "Oh, we use Robert's Rules of Order to run our meetings," I'm always like, "Ah, that's half true. You use"Robert's Rules of Order to handle the business side of your meetings." Okay. So, information items on an agenda are completely different than business items on an agenda, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that, but it's important for people to understand the distinction, because Robert's helps boards handle their business. Right, okay. It kind of starts to answer my next question actually, about what are the key benefits of using Robert's Rules of Order, in board meetings, and how do they enable effective meetings? Yeah, yeah, and the truth is, whether we enjoy having a bunch of rules or not, we need those rules in order to create order, so that we make, we can make business decisions, you know, and so we want to make sure that we're creating a space where the voices of the majority and the voices of the minority are sitting around the same table and have the same opportunity to be heard. And so, that really is a key component for me about why I think Robert's is such a great tool, and it's an underutilised team-building tool on boards. Yes. And so, when people don't have a collective understanding of the fundamentals, then the meetings are not going to run as effectively. So, making sure that people understand the fundamentals is key to uplevelling your meeting productivity. When I was first trained in Robert's Rules, and when I first read Robert's Rules in Brief, I'm sure my first thought was exactly what most people will think. With the different types of motions, which I'll ask you about later, how does this actually make the meeting take less time, when you know you're wording a motion, and then someone's amending the motion, and then you're voting on the amendment, and then you're making other amendments and things, to get your final wording, how does it make it more effective and, and save time? Well, what I, what I would say is, that when people are like, well, how does that all work? I don't really understand it. It's like speaking another language. So, when you're learning a new language, it could feel cumbersome and daunting, but the reality is, is once you get the fundamentals of the language, then all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, okay, I understand the flow of this. Let me just start with this one piece." Because a lot of people, and this is very simple, because Robert's Rules Made Simple, that's what I'm up to doing in the world, is that when you say motion, for the rest of your life, I want you to hear the word question. Right. Okay. A motion is nothing more than a question. That's all it is. So, what Robert says is that there is a business question that the board is desiring to answer. You need to first start by making a motion, ask the question. Why would you do that? Why would you first ask the question? Well, because if you have a group of people, because I see this in meetings all the time, and this is a life waster, this is a time waster, where you get into a meeting, and people are talking and talking and talking and talking, and somebody goes,"Um, should somebody make a motion?" Yeah."What's the problem we're trying to solve?" Yeah. You just wasted a whole lot of life. And so, Roberts is saying, put the question on the table, see if at least one other person in the room thinks that question is worthy to talk about, and that's a second."I second the main motion. I second the question." And once that main motion receives a second, now the question belongs to the assembly. Yeah. And now we have a focused way of making decisions. Now, amendments, that's another one. You're like, "Well, gosh, does that just, isn't it a time waster?" I'm sorry, that's as quick as humans can move. That's, we're not AI [artificial intelligence]. We have to break it down small, manageable, bite-sized chunks, you know, and so that's what an amendment is. It allows you to add something to or subtract something from the amendment, and what you're doing in that process is getting a very strong, tight definition around the question, so that everyone has a common understanding of what question is, and you're all answering the same question. Oh, you're giving me the chills, Mark. You're giving me the chills, because that doesn't happen very often, right? There's misinterpretations."Oh, I didn't know that's what you were saying." That's why full arguments have been created, you know, marriages have ended because they didn't understand the question. You were arguing that question, and she was arguing that question, and there was a breakdown. So, making sure that everybody understands what the main question is, the main motion, that really is the first step in creating clarity in getting to a decision. Yes, yes. Now, I've got a couple of favourite misconceptions about Robert's Rules, because as I said before, it's very common that people run meetings using motions and seconding and so forth, but they've never heard of Robert's Rules, and never understood the detail. What are some of the common misconceptions about Robert's Rules that you encounter? Well, one that kind of personally drives me crazy, I'll go on my soapbox. I dislike, and Robert's now talks about it, friendly amendments, this concept. Do you ever, have you ever heard of that? No, I haven't. It's something that happens here in the States, where someone will make an amendment, and then there'll be somebody that says,"Well, I'd like to offer a friendly amendment," and then all of a sudden the maker of the amendment and the person who's trying to make the friendly amendment are doing something, and that. So, wait a minute, it created a lot of confusion, and so Robert's actually addresses it now and says, as a chair, if somebody wants to make a friendly amendment, treat it as an amendment, not as, you know, they can't do some side brokering deal, because once a motion has been moved and seconded, it no longer belongs to the maker of the motion. The maker of the motion is unimportant, okay, okay. The maker of the motion is unimportant, and we need to get over the ego of that, because once the motion has been moved and seconded, it now belongs to the assembly. So, I think I just probably stated two things that bother me: the maker of the motion is not that important, and I don't like when people try to use this tactic of friendly amendments. It's funny that the maker of the motion is not important, but we do record the name of the maker of the motion in the minutes. Okay, okay. That's fine if you want to, yeah. You can. Yeah. Well, that's, I thought that was standard. I thought you, so, "Such and such moved." So again, different organisations are going to do it differently, but what's most important about the meeting minutes is that the final motion that gets approved is recorded in the minutes. Right. You don't need to say this person moved, this person seconded, there was discussion that followed, and blah blah, and then this person amended. You now, unless your bylaws and your Constitution state different, or any of your, you know, any other laws, legalese, let me just say this: Robert's Rules of Order is the lowest ranking document in your organisation. The organisation's Constitution and bylaws gives Robert's the authority to manage the business. Now, if there's anything in your Constitution or bylaws that contradicts Robert's Rules of Order, you yield to the higher ranking document. Yes, of course, right. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to hear you, and I'm really pleased to hear you say, that you don't need to record the mover of the motion, that it is, because the motion belongs to the assembly, as you say, because a conversation that I had recently was around suggesting that this tendency for people to say this person moved, and one of my key frustrations is, this person seconded, because Robert's Rules is very clear that you don't have to record the seconder, because the seconder doesn't even have to agree with the motion. No, no. They just have to think it should be discussed. Yeah. They find it worthy to discuss. That's all. Right. And so I think part of what, you know, part of what happens is people become almost like they're treating it like they're court stenographers. Yes. This person did this, and this person said this, and the debate was about this, and - no, no, no, no, it's, you need to just make sure that we're very clear what was actually voted on. Right. Yeah, excellent. And the other key frustration, the misconception that I come across, and I've seen this in constitutions, and yes, as you say, the, the Constitution overrides Robert's Rules, it is a key frustration for me, this concept of the president or the chair having a casting vote. So, everyone in the room votes. You might have seven or nine people cast a vote, and for some reason it's tied. The chair, for some reason, gets another vote. That doesn't feel very democratic to me, and that's a complete misreading of Robert's Rules, because. Yeah, yeah, no. In Robert's, and what I really like about Robert's Rules is this concept that the chair doesn't vote unless the vote changes the decision. Yes, exactly. Because the chair, that makes sense, because the chair really is there to facilitate the meeting, and be assured of getting the board through the agenda, and so unless their vote influences the vote itself, - The decision, yeah. - the decision, then they just abstain from voting in order to maintain a little bit more neutrality. Yes. I did say that word right. "Neutreality." Neutrality, yes. I don't know why that sounded weird coming out, but yeah, so that. People have this kind of concept that if a vote is tied, then somebody needs to break the tie. Break the tie. And Robert's Rules is very clear that if the vote is tied, it doesn't pass, because it doesn't have a majority, and you don't need a casting vote. It's that simple. Yeah. No, okay. Very fun, very fun. Friendly amendments though, that's one I'll have to look into a little bit more. Now, getting into the grant a little bit, one of the things that we, we have talked about offline, but I'd like to give you, ask you to give a bit of an overview, what are the seven key types of motion, and how they work? Okay, so when I come in and I do either my web-based training, or clients purchase my Robert's Rules Made Simple individual training program, or my board license, so they can train their full board online, it is all around what I call the seven fundamental motions. And so, I've sat in hundreds of meetings, and have done tons of trainings, and what I have found is that if we can get everyone on your board to understand these seven fundamental motions, it will uplevel the productivity of your meeting. Now, these motions are, everyone needs to know how to [1] make and vote on a main motion,[2] an amendment, [3] amend the amendment,[4] refer to a committee, [5] postpone to a definite or certain time, [6] lay on the table, and [7] previous question. So, these are the seven motions that I like to focus on, and what I have found is that once you uplevel everybody's collective understanding of these seven fundamental motions, if there's other more intricate questions that come out, there's at least a baseline understanding. Yes, right. And, and it's like, okay, now, like, but sometimes people are asking questions, and they don't even understand main motion and amendment. I'm like, "Woah, let's slow it down,"let's make sure everybody understands." And I say there's seven fundamental motions, but encourage boards to start with the first three: main motion, amendment, and amend the amendment. I cannot tell you how many meetings I have sat in, both, you know, within corporate settings, within school board settings, within university settings, within non-profit settings, within real estate settings, you know, like where, where people just don't understand those three, the main motion, and then they stumble over amendments. That's interesting, okay. And so, start simple, start with the basics. This is the road map, the seven, and these are the three you need to focus on. So, my job is to get you to focus everybody's learning, because most Robert's trainings I've sat in on turn into a popcorn of, "Well, what about this, and what about this, and what about this?" People don't learn like that. People need a road map, and people need to be able to make sure that we're all learning in pace, and that we've learned the fundamentals, and now we open it up for a popcorn. And it makes it easier for the chair, too, when the conversation starts to stray off track, to bring people back to that motion. Bring people, yes. Yeah. So, the main motion, quite clear, somebody suggesting a question. That's the main question, yes. And so recording the words that were made in that motion, there's your main motion. Somebody suggests an amendment to that motion, is, I'd like to add some words, delete some words, change some words in the main motion. Yes. An amendment to amendment clearly is, "Well, okay,"your amendment's a great idea, but I'd like to to tweak your amendment," and the way Robert's Rules works is, someone's tabling the main motion. If somebody makes an amendment, you discuss and vote on the amendment, and then go return to the main motion. You're not tabling the main motion. That let that go, right. Okay, great. Thank you. So, it's not, yeah, it's not being tabled, it just is, okay, so I'll give you my, it's a pyramid. Yes. So, what I want you to look at it is just stair steps. So, the only thing we have on the table, in the pyramid, because that's the structure that houses Robert's Rules of Order. Yes. So, in order to start handling your business, you start by making a main motion. "I move,"is it seconded?" Boom, we're in the pyramid, and then there's a series of stair step stair steps. So, someone says,"I move to purchase XYZ for the"blank company," and then someone says,"Well, I move to purchase five for the XYZ." "Oh, I move to strike out five and insert seven." Right. So, now what we have is a main motion, an amendment, and amend the amendment. Yes, okay. You don't, you haven't tabled anything. Right. All of those motions are on the table. They're all there, but you first are dealing with the amendment to the amendment. Yes. Right. And then you, you take those stair steps on the way down. Right. So, you resolve the amendment to the amendment. Once it's resolved, you can refer to the amended motion. Once that's - No, not to the amended motion, back to the amendment. Yes. Then once you deal with the amendment, then you're down to the main motion. Right, right. Right, yeah. So they are the three fundamentals. Yes. Now you laid some other ones out. Refer, of course, is when you're saying, okay, we, we want to take this concept and take it outside of this board meeting to another group to have them discuss it, make a decision, and bring it back. So, you're referring to a committee, whether it's ad hoc or existing. And now again, let's look at why that's so important, and this is a really great indicator of the health of your organisation. Do your boards trust their committees, or are you serving in an organisation where you've got a controlling board that has to make all the decisions, and so they're scrutinising everything that the committees do? Why are committees created? Committees are created to save you life. And so, I like to look at the dynamic between the board and the committees, and do you have a board that's trying to micromanage, or are you really trusting your committees? So they're designed to save you life. So, I move to refer this to the finance committee to report back to our next regularly scheduled meeting. Yeah, great. A big life saver. And you get specialists involved by doing that, as well. So, that's the fourth type. The fifth type. Postpone. Postpone to a definite or certain time. Yes. So, this one is where, okay, we've got the motions on the table, but I'm not quite ready to vote yet. I need more time. I gotta go talk to my constituents. I need to do more research. So, I move to postpone this to our May meeting. Yes. And why that's significant is because it gives a specific time for when it needs to be reported back. Yes. And that's why, and I'm going to just say this, this is a table, lay on the table is one of the my most widely used, but there it's one of the most widely misused, because you only lay a motion on the table in lieu of more pressing business. So, if you're an experienced chair, if somebody says, "I move to table," the response should be, "In lieu of what business?". And it's like, CEO [Chief Executive Officer] is coming in, that this is happening, we need to set up the room, whatever it is. Okay. So, this is actually the one I was going to get to, because the first five I'm familiar with. Lay on the table, this is one that I think, what is that motion? So, is this a motion to take the current matter and delay it to later in the meeting? Is that what lay on the table is? No. So, because unlike a postponement or postponed to a definite time or certain, - That's to a future meeting, yes. - but it could be, I move to postpone this till eight o'clock tonight. Right. So, you could have any time. Yes. And what's powerful about a postponement, because what I would love for us to do is, I want to frame the conversation in focusing on a postponement, because tabling it doesn't require a time frame to come back. So, it's like, "Okay, I move to lay this matter on the table," and then it could just lay there forever. And then in order to, in order to take that, take like get that item back, someone has to be astute enough at the next meeting to go, "I move to take that motion we laid on the"table at the last meeting off the table." So, there's a whole another motion that you have to use. I say, this is what I say to my friends. My friends, because you're all my friends when I'm training, but we have the seven fundamental motions, focus on the first three, - Yes.- and don't use lay on the table. Oh, yeah. That's what I was thinking when you were saying this. I like, why would you want to use that? Thank you. And what was the seventh? What was the seventh motion? The seventh one is my favourite, right. My, this is one, because it's called previous question. Ah, yes, yes. And previous question is great, because when I say previous question, based on the conversation we've been having, you should think previous motion. What it's saying is, "Hey, do you want to"stop discussion on the previous motion and vote?" So, two-thirds of the room says, "Yeah, let's stop talking," then we stop talking and we vote on the previous question or the previous motion. Ah, right, right. So, it's saying, "Let's halt this conversation and get into the vote. We think we've had enough discussion, now." That's right, "We, let's be done." Not just halt it, let's be, maybe "halt" means "be done", but be done, right. Like, not just stop it, let's stop it completely. We're, you know. Yeah, right, right. We're ready to vote. You raise another good point there as well, that with Robert's Rules, when you do dig into it, as a standard, different types of motions require different majorities and so forth, but let's not get into those level of detail. Read the book. All of that is inside of Robert's Rules Made Simple, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's an online course, too, right. And I wanted to say the reason that I created Robert's Rules Made Simple, beyond I love this material, and I'm really good at teaching boring stuff in a way that's interesting, is I'm not a reader. I've read this entire book cover to cover. I'm sorry. It's really a page turner. So I can read, but that's not my learning style. Yeah. And so, you'll see that inside of my training programme, I really cater to all the various learning styles. I do have e-books for those people who enjoy to read. I have audiobooks who are auditory learners like me. I have videos with examples who are more kinaesthetic that like to be able to see it and all that. And so, it's that sense of like, - Yeah, great. - I really wanted to be able to cater to all the different learning styles and do it in a way that was connecting the rules not to just this is how you use it, but this is how you do it in order to foster a healthy, productive meeting dynamic. And I'll make sure that there's a link to Robert's Rules Made Simple, although it is easy to spell. robertsrulesmadesimple.com. Yeah. Robert's with an 's', rules with an 's', made simple. And what is also available that I think is so important is that you can buy it for yourself individually, my online training, or you can buy a board license, which is like really an effective way to provide Robert's training to everyone on your board for one low cost, and I think that's important to be able to do. I think it is very important, because you have, if you walk into a boardroom and one person or two people are familiar with Robert's Rules and the rest of the board aren't, you're not really in a great space. That's right. You need everybody to be the same, have a at least a basic understanding so that you can use it effectively. You're absolutely right. You mentioned before, sometimes board conversations that are around information, not around making decisions, not around the business. Are there situations where Robert's Rules of Order might not be applicable, or you need to adjust them for specific board settings? Interesting question. I don't know if I can think of something right off the the top, but I think you're always adjusting everything when it comes to human beings, you know, and so one of the main things is, maybe I'll go in a different direction with the question is that I don't want people to adjust themselves to the rules, meaning your personality should be with using the rules. A lot of people are like,"Oh, Robert's Rules of Order, it's so boring, it's so dry." Well, it's boring and dry if you're boring and dry. Yeah. Okay. It's boring and dry if you're boring and dry, and that's what happens a lot of times in meetings, that people check their personalities at the door. They leave their humanity outside. I'm like, bring it in and then utilise the rules to support the people in the room. And so, my meetings are not boring. My meetings are, you know, a space where you want to be in, and people feel connected, and there's a sense of, we're accomplishing something, because that's who I am when I'm in the room. So, the rules aren't boring. It's the people who are administering the rules are boring. Right. And so, we have to find a way to bring a little bit more humanity into our boardrooms, because we need to foster these dynamics that feel good, right. One of the things that I mean, Robert's Rules are, from memory, it's been a little while since I've read it, I don't think it talks so much about this is how minutes look, and when I was first trained in it, when we wrote the minutes, all we did was write the motion and the result of the motion, and one of the things that I've subsequently realised is very important is that in your board minutes, you really want to have the two or three key points that were discussed, and why you've made that decision, because it's going to be important to come back to that reasoning later to say, "You made this"decision, is it justified?" Like the rationale. Yeah. You want to have that rationale recorded in the minutes. And again, I really do think that the minutes are an interesting document based on kind of the culture of your organisation. Yes. So that'll be reflected, there's going to be some obvious pieces that are the same with respect to,"This is the motion that was passed," you know, but how much or how little other information you add, it really depends on kind of the culture. The context. The context of your organisation, you know. Yeah, right. What challenges have you encountered when boards try to implement Robert's Rules? And how do you overcome them? Well, yeah. You know, what I find is that a lot of times people will seek me out because they're like, my board needs to use Robert's Rules of Order, and it's, and they're wanting to use it because they're frustrated, and so it's almost like they're throwing the book at everybody for doing it wrong, you know. Yeah, yes. And so, I think that if you're on a board and you're thinking about implementing Robert's Rules of Order, you need to be very careful with respects to the way you introduce it to the members of the board, because people don't like to be told they're doing it wrong. They like to be inspired by an option that will help them maybe do it in a healthier way that will save them life. Yes. Yes, absolutely. You know, I've noticed a few dynamics in our meetings where conversations are going, we had an eight-hour meeting or a seven- hour meeting or three-hour meeting, and that was really draining for me, and if it was draining for me, it was probably draining for you, and so I went out, I found this amazing woman online, she talks about this tool called Robert's Rules of Order, and I'm interested in maybe exploring if having a system like this would help us be more productive. So, I would say if you're wanting to introduce it, be very careful with the offer. Yes, right. You certainly want it to be a tool, not a weapon. That's right. One of the things that I found though, when we started using Robert's Rules, is that you were able to firstly, you could pull people back on track when they were sidetracked. It was a really simple tool for that, rather than relying on the chair to say, "Hey, come on guys, let's get back to the point." You could have somebody from the floor, so "You know, guys, we're off track here. Let's get back to the motion." Yeah, "Point of parliamentary enquiry, what are we talking about?" Like, that's what I love about Robert's, is that yes, while the chair is in charge, there's tools and ways for the board members to say,"Hey, I'm done talking, let's start voting." which is the previous question. Yes. Yeah. There's ways for them to say,"Well, point of parliamentary inquiry, what are we talking about right now?"What motion is on the floor?" Yes. You know,"Point of information, can you remind me"how much money is in the account?" Yeah. You know, like there, so there's, there's ways that you can interact with the chair to set them and the conversation up for success. I found that the requesting information in particular was a really useful one. The other thing that I found is it enabled you to pull back on repetition. Yes. Particular when you hold people to the ability to speak twice on each motion, and you know, rather than having the back and forward and everyone speaking half a dozen times and repeating things that have already been said, it's like if, if you get that dynamic, having a chair that holds you to the rules and says,"You're only allowed to speak twice." That's right, yeah."You've already had your turn, buddy." Right. That's right, that's right. And, what I love is this word about if we are really inviting our board members to be rigorous about their discussion, and I'll also pull it over to information items. Yes. Because if you're dealing with information items as a chair, when you're asking,"Does anyone have any questions?" Er, er."Does anybody have anything that needs to be clarified?" Because if it's information, there should not be any questions or diatribes or, you know, it should just be, "Do you need any clarification? Anybody need any clarification for"this information that we just delivered to you?" "Oh, yeah. Could you clarify this?"Could you repeat that? Could you tell me when, this?" Not like, "Well, I thought"that was very interesting, and I'd love to give my opinion about it." Nobody cares about your opinion right now."Do you, are there any clarifications needed?" Yeah, right. That's the difference. And so, in my webinar trainings, and I'm working with clients, I hear Robert's and I hear information.

Information should sound like this: 29:19

"Come on, let's go, let's move, keep"it tight, go, go, go, go, go," right. Yeah. Yeah. Robert's and business should

sound like this: 29:28

there's a rhythm. Is there a motion been moved? Is there a second? It's been properly moved and seconded that. So there's a rhythm to the language of Robert's. Yes. And when that rhythm is predictable, it creates security and it creates trust, and you need that when you're handling your business. Yeah, absolutely. We've talked a little bit about tools and resources. You've got, of course, Robert's Rules Made Simple. Robert's Rules Made Simple that you can jump online, and you've got your online training. We've got Robert's Rules in Brief, which is a nice easy read. You've got the door stop at your end that people can read if they want to get into the detail. Are there any other resources or tools that you'd recommend? Well, I would say that for those who are board chairs or individuals who have to support their chairs, I have a 'Chair Meeting with Confidence' online training that really is a powerful resource that's full of all kinds of scripts, because the biggest question that I get from my board chairs who have to run meetings that use Robert's Rules of Order is,"Oh my God, Susan, what do I say when?" Yeah. And so, I created e-guides and scripts to answer, you know, like I have one e-book that says, you know, what to say when, and it gives 40 scripted examples of how to make interventions when dealing with difficult meeting behaviours, and then I've got scripts on how to open the meeting using your high-five context, right. Kind of setting the context of the meeting, and then also, so how do you ask for the minutes? How do you, what do I say when? So, it's all scripted, and it's just a really fantastic resource for those who need to chair meetings. Cheat sheets, that's what we need more of. There's cheat sheets, there's, yeah, absolutely. Excellent. Final question for you, what advice would you give to a new board director? A new board director? I would say, don't underestimate the importance of making sure that everyone on the board understands the fundamentals. You know. They're there to handle business. The board is there to get business done, but many times boards are operating at such a deficiency in just understanding the basics of the decision-making process that's being used, and if that exists, it's going to make their job and everyone else's job a lot harder. Yes, right. Cool. Susan, again, thank you very much for your time. It's wonderful to talk across the ocean. I would like to talk closer together at some point in the future if we can make that happen, but in the meantime, I really appreciate your time, and I look forward to seeing you soon. And to seeing you next episode. Thank you for watching this episode of Governance Bites. We have more episodes on YouTube and your favourite podcast channel where I interview directors and experts on various topics relating to boards of directors and governance. We'd love to see you back, and please like, subscribe, and share the videos and podcasts.