Governance Bites #100: developing governance in sport, with Martin Snedden

In this episode, Mark Banicevich talks with Martin Snedden about the Sport and Active Place Sector Governance Project that he runs for Sport New Zealand. Martin outlines the project, its inception, some of the sports that are involved, and what the programme entails. Martin shares feedback he's received, his biggest learnings, and the programme's key success factors. He also shares the best governance advice that he's heard shared during the programme. 
Martin Snedden CNZM is a well-known and highly experienced Chief Executive Officer and director, mostly in the sports industry. He is currently chair of Cycling New Zealand and two other not-for-profit boards, is a past Chair of NZ Cricket, and past director of the International Cricket Council and World Masters Games 2017. Martin was CEO of Rugby World Cup 2011, and is a former CEO of NZ Cricket. He was a member of the NZ cricket team, the Black Caps, 1980-1990, playing 25 tests and 93 one day internationals. Martin was made a Compainion of the New Zealand Order of Merit in 2012 for services to sport administration. 
#governance, #leadership, #corporategovernance, #boardcraft, #decisionmaking, #makingadifference, #governancebites, #boardroom , #cgi, #charteredgovernanceinstitute, #director, #notforprofit, #cpd, #professionaldevelopment, #incorporatedsociety

Transcript

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Hi there, my name is Martin Snedden. I'm currently the chair of Cycling New Zealand, as well as a couple of other not-for-profit organisations, and also I run a project that involves facilitation of governance learnings for about 30 national sporting organisation chairs and all of the Regional Sports Trust[RST] chairs from around New Zealand. It's a project that's been going for four years, so we're going to talk about that today. And my background is years of involvement in sport, originally more CEO [Chief Executive Officer] roles and then most recently governance and chair roles. Hi, welcome to Governance Bites. My name is Mark Banicevich, and as you just heard, today I have the outstanding pleasure to spend time with Martin Snedden. Martin, thank you very much for your time. Thanks, Mark. This will be interesting. I admire what you're doing. Thank you. It's an incredibly important topic, but sometimes underrated. It is very much. And you know, I'm a bit starstruck because, of course, I grew up watching you play cricket for the Black Caps. That was a few years ago. It is indeed, it is indeed. But your career, as you said, has then gone into CEO roles. You were CEO of Rugby World Cup 2011. And now into governance roles, and very much in the sport sector through cricket, cycling and so on. Well, sport's been part of me since I was born, predominantly cricket, but rugby and I was interested in all sorts of sports. And so really to get an opportunity sort of midlife to move out of law, because I was a lawyer for a while. That's right. And begin earning my living off cricket was a startlingly good opportunity. And so that just started something going, and you know that was in 2001, and I'm still going. Yeah, fantastic. And we are going to talk about, as you said, the programme that you started with Sport New Zealand, the Sport and Active Play Sector Governance Project. You started it in 2021 with Sport New Zealand. Can you start by outlining it? Well, what it is really to recognise that chairing sports organisations and RSTs [Regional Sports Trusts] as well, it's not a straightforward job. It's done largely on a volunteer basis, and these people need help to cope with what's in front of them and to take advantage of the opportunities as well that present themselves from time to time. But prior to Sport New Zealand approaching me to start up this project, the reality is that there was no contact, no way that chairs of individual organisations would be in contact with other people who are doing exactly the same job, albeit say with a different sport or an RST. And there's a real commonality in governance. It's sort of a lot of it is very, very similar, no matter what organisation you're chairing or you're on the board of. So there's a lot of topics that we can talk about that are of strong common interest. The other thing that was a startling gap was that there were, the chairs just simply didn't have a support network beside them. So a really important principle underpinning this project is that the chairs get to know each other, and as they get to know each other, they start to trust each other, and as they start to trust each other, they start to share their own experiences at quite a raw level. And it's when you have those experiences in the room that can be put on the table for everyone who's involved to hear about and then discuss, you start to really create a learning environment around governance, sport governance in particular, that's absolutely vital. Yes, definitely. How was it conceived? How's it funded and able to get implemented? Well, the chair of Sport New Zealand at the time was a guy called Bill Moran. Bill had seen this gap. He realised that Sport New Zealand had a whole range of relationships with national sporting organisations [NSOs] and RSTs throughout New Zealand, but those were sort of vertical relationships — Sport New Zealand into the sport organisation. There was a complete lack of horizontal connection. And so he came to me and he said, "Would you be prepared to, as a pilot, go about"creating a community of chairs? And then working with them to help"them get to know each other and to learn about governance." And so that started four years ago. Yeah. And it's just kept going. And although there's a reasonably regular turnover of chairs, the organisations that are represented, I guess within the project, have stayed really stable. So there's about 45 organisations, about 16 or 17 RSTs and 30-odd national sporting organisations. So it's great. Absolutely. Yeah, and it's funded by Sport New Zealand, isn't it? And so they back me. They give me a budget to work with. They're really good about pretty much delegating the whole project to me and saying,"Well, you just use your skills and experience to go in whatever"directions you think are important in this area." So there is no prescription from them as to how I go about this. But over four years, obviously, we've worked out, you know, a good way of doing things and we'll keep evolving it as we go. But you know, it's sort of, it's just taken off. Yeah, right. What spread of sports organisations is involved? You mentioned the 16 or 17 regional sports trusts. Yeah. What are the organisations that? Well, pretty much any of the large or moderately sized national sporting organisations. So that project's just focused on the national sporting organisations. There's another one that I've started up recently that's actually focusing on regional sports chairs, but we can get to that a bit later. But so, you know, by and large, cricket, football, the Olympic sports down to some of the real small ones. That's been an eye-opener for me, is having contact with those that are running really small NSOs and realising the particular challenges they face as a board and as an organisation. And you know, I've spent most of my time in sport governance in an organisation like cricket, which is well resourced. Yes, it is. But these other poor buggers, it's hard work. So, you know, they got to be light on their feet and thinking really clearly to handle the governance thing. And in fact, Mark, it was really the experience I had with those groups that ultimately sort of influenced me into making a decision to put the hand up for consideration to chair the board of Cycling New Zealand. Small organisation, quite high profile when it comes to Commonwealth Games and Olympic Games, really good performances there. But if you strip that out of it, small organisation that has had lots and lots of major challenges. Yes. And most particularly arising from the sad death of Olivia Podmore. So, you know, there's all sorts of things that sport governors actually have to cope with. Absolutely. And there are a number of sports that haven't yet heard of or had access to the programme that would also be able to benefit. So the opportunity to potentially expand it or. Well, it's a little bit constrained by capacity. There's only me, and I'm sort of doing the whole lot, more or less. Yes. No, that's not quite right. I do get some great support from Julie Hood at Sport New Zealand, who handles the governance partnerships they have, and also from Professor Lesley Ferkins at AUT [Auckland University of Technology]. Lesley, I got her involved right at the start. She's a professor specialising in sport leadership and governance, and she got really interested in this. So she has voluntarily again basically connected herself into the project. So it's great actually having those sounding boards of Julie and Lesley that I can go to on a frequent basis and, you know, we can have a bit of fun doing what we're doing. Fantastic. What does the programme itself entail? You have a few huis[gatherings] each year, I know, don't you. Yeah, so structurally, three times a year I bring everyone together. So you've got about 50-odd people in the room. Yes. And we'll spend the best part of a day going through a selection of governance topics that I have chosen and given them reading for before they turn up. And then in addition to that, in the last couple of years, I've started running online sessions, and that's enabled me, in a really easy way, to extend the programme beyond just the chairs and to actually start to work with some who are aspiring chairs who want to become the chair at some point. Yes. Deputy chairs. So people who are interested enough and are heading towards a chairing role in an NSO or RST. And then also more latterly, I ran some stuff for brand new directors or RST trustees who, you know, these are people who actually usually have had no governance training. They're starting off cold, and most of the time, you know, they're not really sure what's happening. And then one thing leads to another because then the penny dropped with me that a group that really need governance help are chief executives. You know, there's a, I think there's a major gap in our in our thinking around the importance of chief executives being helped to understand governance and, because ultimately, although most of their lives working are spent dealing with external stakeholders or the people that are within their own organisations, the reality is there's a group of people sitting above them who are their bosses, who they have to report to, and they have to be taught how to manage upwards. And likewise, boards have to be taught how to treat chief executives because it's really easy to fall into a master servant type mentality in those circumstances. Well, it can't. It doesn't work well that way. Well, it doesn't. And so, you know, my time, more recently, has focused in on, so how do we enrich this partnership that exists between a chief executive and his or her board. So, you know, there's plenty to work on. Absolutely. Yeah, we just need more of you. How's the project been received? What sort of feedback have you received? Well, universally positive right from the start. And we do, at the end of each session, face-to-face hui, and then periodically with the online programmes, we go and get feedback. In fact, that's a key part of the way the whole thing operates. For instance, there is turnover because chairs change and other changes happen. So what I habitually do is induct every new person into the programme before they turn up at the face-to-face huis. Now I might spend half an hour on a team session with them online just getting to know them. Them getting to know me. Telling them about the project. And really getting them into a position where they can contribute from the get-go. Yes. So they don't turn up and have to spend the first interaction just sitting there quietly, too afraid to say anything. I want them ready to go and contributing, you know, from when they turn up. And that's really worked. And then one of the cornerstones I think of this is to help them really understand the power of whakawhanaungatanga [building relationships], which is how you develop your relationships and how you learn to interact with each other and how worthwhile it is to spend a lot of time on that at the start. You know, every, this is truthfully, it's governance 101 for any board is actually create time for board members to get to know each other. Yes. And you know, it's a Te Ao Maori [the Māori world] principle, but we've incorporated it heavily into this project. And quite often when I sit people down and say, "Right, this is what I'm"going to help you understand, and we're going to take an hour just on"this one, whakawhanaungatanga topic." They look at me and think,"Do we really have to spend an hour on this?" Inevitably, invariably by the end of the hour, they are starting to realise, hey, this is a critical tool in learning about how you govern well, get to know each other so that you can better learn how each person ticks and how you can then work together to address important things. So that's really neat. And then, you know, we've got a variety of topics we cover. I mean, always I help them understand what's the role of the board, what's the role of a modern chair. Yes. You know, the role of the modern chair has changed quite significantly, and incumbent chairs need to know that. They need to know what a good modern chair looks like, much more of a facilitator than a dictator. And there's a lot of skills that modern chairs need to be able to use. So we do that. And then it sort of flows naturally from there that you do topics like, so if you've got, you know, angst or tension within your board, how do you deal with that? It flows on to what's the role, what's the relationship like between a CEO and a board? How should that work? How should the chair operate the CEO relationship? You know, there's just, you just keep unpicking topics, and it just keeps going. Yes. And then more recent, every so often we sort of step away from pure governance and we zero in on topics of really important currency. So an example of that is every incorporated society in New Zealand has to reregister under the Incorporated Societies Act [2022]. Yes. And they have to have done it by March next year [2026]. You know, there's about 8,000 sports organisations in New Zealand. All of them have got to do this if they want to remain as an incorporated society. It's not the simplest thing to do, and it's incredibly boring, as well, piling through constitutions. So we have spent a lot of time working with chairs to work out the best approach to deal with this within their own organisations and then in a federated structure where they've actually got to provide support regionally and if they can, clubs. Yes. And so Sport New Zealand's been really good in that process. Just the last few weeks, a topic that we're starting to work with, which I never would have guessed a year ago, is artificial intelligence [AI] and just starting to understand how we have to get our heads around that and learn how to use what it's got to offer and protect against the risks that come with it. Yes. So, you know, that's a governance topic. What's the governance framework you build around how your organisation is going to engage with AI? Right. So it never stops. It doesn't, does it? So four years in, what are your biggest learnings so far? Relationships first, second and third. You know, build those carefully. Yes. And then secondly, and this is something I repeat ad nauseam to anyone in the programme, is governance is an art that you have to learn. You do not just absorb and instinctively know about governance. Your instincts, your instincts often will be really helpful. Yes. But you actually have to go through proper governance learning to understand how best it works and how you can make your best contribution within it, whether you're the chair or just a director on a board or trustee on an RST trust. So those are those are the things that I have had reinforced to me and that I hammer home to the participants. Yes, right. Okay. What do you think are the key success factors? The people have enjoyed getting to know each other. Yeah. And when that happens, they have grown trust in each other and the group. The group, you know, every conversation we have is effectively under Chatham House Rules, and we're quite clear, you know, unless there is consent, you can't take individual conversations because what you're trying to do is give people the freedom within those conversations to really share the raw stuff, including the stuff that's difficult. Yes. And for them to feel able to do that, they can't, they need to be comfortable that whatever they say is not going to be used against them in another forum. So just that trust, that confidentiality, the enjoyment of each other. Like what I do now, I started doing a couple of years ago with the face-to-face huis, is most of them are held in Wellington because it's - Central for the country. - Yeah, the Miramar Golf Club has just shut down now, but it had a really basic simple conference facility right next to the airport. Right. So that was fantastic. And then what I started encouraging people to do is instead of coming down for a 9:00 a.m. start, come in the night before and let's have dinner together. Yes. And you know, it took a while for people to get the hang of it, and now we're at a stage where probably about half the people, so 25 to 30 people, will come down the night before. We'll have a few drinks in the bar and then we'll go in and have a dinner together. Yeah. Now, you know, that's it's a nice social occasion, but it is part of the whole learning process. Of course. And they you know, these informal conversations start happening with each other, and time and time again, I see chairs reaching out to ask for help from other chairs, not just from me. Yeah. Or offering help. So you know. It's pretty important that if you're going to ask for and receive help, you've also got to be prepared to give help when it's needed. Absolutely. And that's quite an important principle. So those are the sort of things that have underpinned it. And then what is also critical is using the experiences in the room to bring topics to life. And there's a whole, you know, if you've got 50 people in the room that have been working in sport governance, there is a whole range of experiences available to use. And so I keep my ears open always to listen, okay, what's happened, what might people know something about? And then I line them up in the week before the hui and I say, "Right, I want you, at the"right time in the hui to stand up and tell this story that you've told"me about." And they do so willingly, and it's great. And you know, it's not just using the stories of the really experienced people. Some of the best learnings come by listening to people who are completely inexperienced and are just articulating how difficult it is when they don't know much - Yes. - about governance. And thereby you bring home to people the importance of helping people who are new to it to learn. Yes. So, you know, there's all sorts. Yeah. Well, what's the future of the programme? You, as you've said to me, you're now offering a similar programme in Active, - Yeah. - which is the regional sport trust in Auckland. So I'm really lucky in that as my life has evolved and I've got older, I've got the ability to devote myself entirely to not-for-profit governance. And so I chair three

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cycling plus Heart of the City, which is Auckland's central district business association, and Business Events Industry Aotearoa, which is a business events industry member organisation. So I do that, that probably takes up half of my time. And then the other half is facilitating these group learnings. And so we've talked about the national one, but late last year, Auckland's RST Active came to me and said, "Can we do something similar with the regional sports"organisation chairs?" So we've started that up. Same principles, a little bit, it's a cut-down version probably of the national one, but it's the same principles, lots of the same topics. And you know, I just have to concentrate hard to get to know the people that are there - Yeah. - so that I can pick up what are the experiences they've got. I'm quite explicit with them at times and say, "You tell me about, you"know, what's happened in your governance life, and let's just"think about how that's relevant for discussion with the wider group." And generally speaking, people are really generous in telling me stuff, and then that gives me ammunition if you like to feed into the programme as it goes forward. So, you know, it's a good thing to be involved in. You could quite easily get a phone call from 15 or 16 other regional sports trusts saying, "Could you do"something for us?" There's only one of you. What's your succession plan? Yeah, well, I'll say, "No." I've got to, I'm hoping that Sport New Zealand will renew the contract for the national project fairly soon because I'd like to keep going. I mean, that's, this is what I love doing in a working life is just helping other people get their heads around all this stuff. Yeah. And you get to, the thing I love about it, too, is I get to know them, and they're good people because I mean anyone who volunteers to chair an organisation and they, to be honest, they haven't got a clue what they're walking into when they actually get first appointed. In most cases. Absolutely. But they are really generous people. Yeah. They're not being paid, or if they are being paid, it's a pittance. And they are giving so much time. So I just look at them and I admire them and think, well, you're a good person, and therefore it's actually quite fun getting to know them. Yeah. I don't know what to be honest what the succession of this is because it is quite dependent on me. Yeah. Well, you know, that's true. My attitude about that is, so what? I'm not stopping, unless someone stops me, so we'll just keep going. But I do have this help from Julie Hood and from Lesley Ferkins. It's amazing. So there's some strength in how we do this. Is there anything you'd do differently if you were starting again? I do keep learning as we go because I am asking at the end of each session, you know, what's working, what's not working, what have we not focused on. So you're constantly taking that feedback and then fashioning what you do next based on that feedback, and that's good because you like getting reinforcement that people feel good about it. Yes. That they're getting value out of it. So I guess it's a constant evolution that happens rather than a shuddering change that might happen here or there. Yes. I do really need, if I can to, I would love to have chief executives more involved. Yeah. In a governance capacity, not about teaching them how to be a chief executive otherwise. No. But how to help them understand governance and work in that environment because the reality is sport's a pretty harsh environment at times, and it's fairly normal for chief executives to burn out. It's reasonably normal for a number of chief executives to find themselves in trouble because they haven't quite understood, you know, the board relationship. And so it's sort of, it runs the risk always of being just a bit too tense. So there's a real need to help chief executives because ultimately if an organisation's going to succeed, there's not much use about having, not much use in having a high performing board, but not a high performing chief executive, or a toxic relationship between them. Yeah. So you've got to get the whole right rather than just individual components of it. So, you know, with a bit of luck, I'll be able to extend it a little bit in that direction going forward. Fantastic. One final question for you. You've mentioned that these conversations are under Chatham House Rules. Hopefully, you'll be able to share something. Among all the conversations you've had over the last four years. What's the best advice you've overheard one chair say to another? I think probably it is when you're in the middle of a crisis, just firstly stay focused on the issue rather than the personalities, which enables you then to stay a little bit more calm about the difficulties you're dealing with. And then secondly, realise that whilst it feels like it's going to go on forever, the reality is a crisis will pass and so you'll get back into a more even keel. Yes. So it's good watching chairs who really have the emotional intelligence to be able to just pass on that and say,"Hey, yeah, you're going to strike"hard times, but hang in there because things usually sort"themselves out after a while." Cool. Martin, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation. I'll look forward to catching up again soon. Okay. Good on you, Mark. And we'll see you next episode. Thank you for watching this episode of Governance Bites. We have more episodes on YouTube and your favourite podcast channel where I interview directors and experts on various topics relating to boards of directors and governance. We'd love to see you back, and please like, subscribe and share the videos and podcasts.